Agile and Open Innovation with Mary Provinciatto

In this episode of Le Podcast, I was lucky to have Mary Provinciatto, an author passionate about lean and agile, and an Engagement Lead with the Red Hat Open Innovation Labs provides her insights about agile and open innovation.

Mary is the author of Sprint a Sprint, a book about the mistakes and successes in the cultural transformation of an agile team.

We covered a lot of ground during the episode on how to build a bridge between technology and business, the importance of sharing clarity on why we are doing things, and a lot more on how to build a team.

A few references we mentioned during the episode:

Sprint a Sprint by Mary Provinciatto and Paulo Caroli
The Open Practice Library, a place to find practices that are created, tested and shared by the people who use them day-to-day,
Mary surprised me by asking a question back to me about my experience writing Changing Your Team From The Inside and I am a Software Engineer and I am in Charge,
I realized that in the answer, I mentioned all the references about business fables we cited with Christina Woodtke in the previous episode of Le Podcast,

Drop a comment or an email with your feedback or just to say hello! And until next time to find better ways of Changing Your Team!

You can listen to this episode on your favorite platform: Anchor, Spotify, Breaker, Google, Apple…

Here is the transcript of the episode:

Alexis:

Hey Mary, can you tell us a bit more about you and your background?

Mary:

Yeah, sure. So hello everyone, I’m Mary Provinciatto. I’m from Brazil, but I’m currently living in Berlin, Germany. And a little bit about my background, I started my career as a software developer when I was 17. And that was what I did during five years of college, but after a while I realized I really liked being closer to people, mentor, and coach them, facilitate practices and help creating like a bridge between technology and business. Because it was very frustrating for me as a software developer, when I couldn’t understand why I was doing things and for whom I was building things. I wanted to change that, and I wanted to help creating that bridge.

Mary:

I know that a lot of things are different now. But when I started back in 2007, Agile wasn’t such a big thing. And most of the software development projects I was part of they were waterfall, and this was something that was very frustrating as well. So being like a Scrum Master at the beginning, and this was how I saw I could create a bigger positive impact on those projects. After I realized that I went through several different roles like Scrum Master, project manager, account manager, and now I’m an engagement lead. So besides the roles that I had until now, I studied computer science, and I have two MBAs, project management and marketing, because I wanted to understand more about the business side.

Alexis:

This is really impressive Mary. Can you tell us a little bit more about when you say mentoring and coaching, what are you doing exactly?

Mary:

This is pretty much the story I tell in my book, Sprinter Sprint. I realized when I was working with that team, that I couldn’t just force the other theory that I knew. I couldn’t tell them exactly what they should do, or we should… Let’s use compound now, let’s use this practices. If I did that they wouldn’t understand why are… Sometimes they could be resistant. We went through a journey to discover those things together. Even though I had that theory, I knew those things that the concepts, I couldn’t just tell them that’s what they had to do. I had to help them understand why to do that. And so we’ve worked with the principles and values to help them understand why they were doing those practices they could also prevent, and maybe do a little like changes on how they were applying those things to better considered the scenario and their own context.

Mary:

At the beginning it was hard for me and it was hard for the team as well, because we were failing a lot. We were having a lot of problems. I was patient and I let them learn from the experience, and I was giving them a little bit of what I experienced so far so they could understand, start applying those concepts by their choice instead of having someone else telling them what to do. And this was important because at the end we were working as a team, and not having just one person telling what everybody should do. This was important to identify scenarios that not even I knew what to do. We had a lot of people thinking together instead of just one.

Alexis:

Makes a lot of sense for me when I look at the first sentence of the Agile Manifesto. We are uncovering better ways of developing software by doing it and helping others do it. And what you just said is, instead of trying to tell people what to do, we need to embark on a journey and discover together what we should do that will already suit our needs. I think it’s really powerful, it’s probably a little bit more scary than I think someone that is telling you, “Okay, I know what to do, do it and everything will be fine.” How people react to the idea that you are the expert, you are supposed to know what to do but you don’t want to tell them, you want all the team to work together to find a way.

Mary:

Sometimes we think that only by working and having a product thing like team, things will just flow and it will magically work because we are working with the long lead product team. But this is not true most of the time, because people are complex and it’s not only about the product, it’s not only about the practices and frameworks and methods that we use, but we have to look at people as individuals. And sometimes this will demand that we have difficult conversations as a team, sometimes with individuals. And one thing that helped us to go through this and let people start trusting each other, and ask each other what to do without being afraid that that was a stupid question, being afraid that they couldn’t say that they don’t know something was creating this environment that people felt safe.

Mary:

So since the beginning we were always doing a lot of team building activities. We had like our own budget to go out together every month at least, but we were doing more than that, we were having lunch together very often. We were building distrust because it’s important that people can create empathy, and they can understand why other people are doing things. So one of the examples that I always do when I talk about why individuals and interactions is more important is that, we were discussing about our daily standup, because we already changed the time we were doing it. We were doing it… I don’t remember the exact time, but let’s say it was around 9:00 AM, and people were always late. So we changed it but started to do it at 10:00 AM.

Mary:

And there was this person that he continued to be always late, and the team members… The other team members they were very mad. They were complaining about it all the time. And they were like, “Oh, what’s the point of changing it if he is going to be late all the time, he is not being careful with our time. And we shouldn’t care if he is part of the data standard or not.” And instead of just force them to change the time again, or even talk to the person to make sure he was going to attend at that time, we had a team building activity where we were discussing the different roles each people have before the work, during work and after work. We could understand a little bit more about the routine of each other.

Mary:

And it was funny because we weren’t like trying to solve this problem, but the team directive helped us to solve the daily stand up problem because, we were able to find out that that person was spending a lot of time before arriving at work to own traffic because he was taking his wife to work, his kids to school. And the traffic was very, very bad, and he was a spending hours. He couldn’t predict when he would arrive at work. And when the team listened to that they were like, “Oh, now we understand why you’re never on time.” And they decided to move this stand up in the afternoon and it worked. So, this is how team building activities can help the team creative party and work better with each other.

Alexis:

Okay. I was a little bit worried when you said team building activities, because I’m always a little bit uncomfortable with team building activities because sometimes I can get the different aspect of it, but I don’t really see the result being a team is built. I went to one activities where we are throwing axes to targets and drinking beers. Okay, that’s cool. We had fun. Indian, I’m not sure the team was built. So what you’re describing is something much more intentional about building a team that we add people to get to know each other better. Do you have other examples of team building activities that you think are already working well?

Mary:

Hmm, I say that would depend on the context, and I always try to identify what is important and that scenario. For this team I noticed that we didn’t know anything about each other, because we were distributed. We had part of the team in one city and the other part in another city. So even though we were having lunch together sometimes one half of the team, we didn’t know about the life of the people. So we didn’t know if they had families or anything like that. I wanted to do something that would allow people to know a little bit more about each other. And of course, sometimes we have a barbecue, or we go out to drink together.

Mary:

And this can also be helpful, but it is something that we have to do often to make sure people are talking about their lives. If they’re just going there to play something together but they’re not having conversations, it can be harder and it will take more time too so people can connect and create empathy. I usually try to tailor the activity based on what I want to achieve. I can try to think about other activities now and maybe I can mention them later.

Alexis:

Tell me a bit more about the book. Why did you wrote that book?

Mary:

I always wanted to write a book, but I wanted it to be very practical. I wanted it to be something people can read and have ideas about how to apply the concepts. We usually see people talking about how something works, but I wanted to expand their learning, also considering what could go wrong while trying to put something in place. If you read the book you will see that we tell all the issues that we had with so, like everything that went wrong and how we dealt with the situations. And working with this team from the book it was a perfect scenario to do this, because like I said before, we had all the theory. We knew what to do considering the theory, but how could we apply that?

Mary:

How could we go on a journey that we would allow people to understand that beyond just theory. So that’s why I wrote this book. If you never worked with Scrum, Kanban, or any of the other frameworks methods or practices that we mentioned in the book, we have like the first session is, we explain all the concepts in a very simple and straightforward way. That’s the first part of the book. And the second part is the main session, section where we tell the story of the team, and we tell everything that happened since day one since we started to work together and since after the MVP, after we put the MVP in production as well. And the third section, the last section of the book, is where we have a lot of templates that we used, so people can download them online, or you can see them on the book. We have templates for user stories, how to write user stories for a definition of ready Kansas MVP, and also others.

Alexis:

The team that you are referring to in the book it’s a real team? It’s really something that happened? Or is it something that you pulled from your experience, and you inventing that team setup for the book?

Mary:

No, it is a real team, I worked with them in 2018. I don’t mention their names and the company, because I didn’t want to identify them. But it was a real team.

Alexis:

But when it’s a real team, you’re forced to speak about the things that went wrong. Is it something that you were comfortable with to say, okay, we tried that and it didn’t work?

Mary:

That’s why we didn’t expose their names, because I wasn’t really sure they would feel comfortable about having everything that we did that went wrong, and being told the entire that are in the book. So I prefer to avoid that. To be honest, I think the team was very open to it, because we were sharing everything internally at the company. And we had the mindset, we had the mentality of continuous improvement. We were talking about our mistakes. At the beginning of course it wasn’t like that, but after we created that safe space, a safe environment, we were doing it all the time. Every week we were exposing our mistakes so we could learn from them. And this was something very important.

Alexis:

I really like that. I understand that trust is something important. You mentioned several time safe in a safe space. How do you know that the team reach a point where they are comfortable enough, they are safe to speak about their mistakes for example? All those things.

Mary:

We were always doing safety checks, and I also tell that in the book. At the beginning, if you look at the safety checks that we had, you will see that the safety wasn’t very present there, people were usually saying that they didn’t feel comfortable to talk about difficult things. They were comfortable to talk about work, but if it was something complicated or a conflict they would avoid it. At the beginning we could identify this kind of behavior with the safety tech checks. But after a while we were doing it all the time, and we realized that they were open to talk about anything. So, this is how we noticed that the safety was improving by doing safety checks at the beginning of team building activities, or retrospectives, or other practices that we had to do.

Alexis:

Definitely something that needs to be implemented in a lot of teams. Just to get a sense of where we are now. There is no judgment being that, that’s just understanding where we are. You mentioned you have different roles that you took in different teams. You’ve said Scrum Master, I think people heard that before I know what it is. But you also said engagement lead, can you tell me a little bit more about engagement lead?

Mary:

Before I talk about that, let me tell you a little bit about the open innovation labs, because the engagement lead brow was created by Red Hat, by the open innovation labs. At least that was the first time I saw it when I joined Red Hat. And open innovation labs exists to accelerate the delivery of our customers innovative ideas. So we want to empower the customer so they can deliver success stories. And to do that we work together in a very immersive way. We pair Red Hat specialists with people from the customer, and we achieve real business outcomes. While we’re doing that, we also make sure people are learning and developing capabilities so they can continue working this way, this new way of work, the Agile, Lean DevOps. And they can also achieve even more outcomes after we are gone, after the engagement.

Mary:

And we call this engagement residency. As an engagement lead, I am making sure we are applying this way of working and we are coaching the customer so they can understand why to do that. And we are very outcomes driven. So, as an engagement lead, I try to facilitate this process, I ask questions, I help people understand what are the outcomes instead of just trying to think about the outputs that they should deliver at the end of the engagement. I make sure that people understand why they’re there, and I help them, I facilitate a process where they will be able to develop this new capabilities.

Alexis:

How long is a residency?

Mary:

It can be four weeks or 12 weeks, that’s the range.

Alexis:

Okay. And that means over the course of four to 12 weeks in the residency working with you, people will be able to adopt a new way of working after that. And you’ve seen that happening?

Mary:

Yeah, several times. And usually at the beginning they tell us at least some of them our way, I don’t see how this is going to happen, but we believe in continuous improvement. We are applying it, since day one we are having a lot of feedback loops to help us learn not only about the process that we are taking and using, but also about technology, about the product that we are building, about our users, about several things. We are always learning in a very short feedback loop, and this is how people can achieve those business outcomes so fast, and also learn a lot of things and develop new capabilities.

Alexis:

Impressive. You mentioned before that you were in Germany, I assume that you did residencies in Germany, maybe in other countries in the world. Do you see some cultural difference in how the people adopt that mindset of continuously improve not only the outcomes, but also their way of working?

Mary:

Yes, I do. Sometimes I work with teams that they are like very new to Agile and Lean and DevOps, and I… And like for me in this scenario, I think it is easier to help them understand the values and the principles behind it, because they are being exposed to it for the first time. But sometimes depending on the country and the culture, they went through this already and they worked with other companies, or at their previous job they had a lot of issues with Scrum or another framework. And they are very resistant. They’re like, “Oh, I don’t believe in Agile, I don’t think this is a good thing.”

Mary:

Usually it is harder when this happens but we try to take a step back, and let them know that it’s not about the framework, it’s not about the method, we could change that, we can give it another name, it doesn’t matter. It is about the principles and the values. When we get to that point it doesn’t matter where in the world we’re working, people are always able to understand. And since we are also focused on business outcomes, we change the conversation to help them to facilitate this process where they will achieve what they’re looking for.

Alexis:

Okay. When you say it does not matter where in the world we are working, when people start to really understand and engage with principles and values. Where in the world have you tried that?

Mary:

I’ve worked with the team in Indonesia. I also worked with several teams in Brazil, Chile, Mexico. And to be honest since I got here like two months ago, I didn’t have opportunity to run a residency here yet but it will happen soon.

Alexis:

Excellent. How many engagement leads do we have in the world?

Mary:

I don’t know how to answer that question. Because the team is growing all the time, and I don’t know how many engagement leads we have now. But we have several engagement leads in North America. The team in Latin now is growing fast. I was the first engagement lead there and now we have a very strong team with several engagement leads. Also in the media we have a lot of engagement leads as well. And in the APAC, I couldn’t tell the exact amount, but we are a strong team and we are covering all the regions now.

Alexis:

There’s engagement teams all over the world, and you are all using the same approach. Do you improve that approach after each residency? How does that work for you to use your feedback loop improvement approach?

Mary:

Yes, of course, we drink our own champagne. That’s how we call it. We have bi weekly calls where we talk about the things that we are learning, and we try to adapt the approach based on the learnings. And we share. We have like weekly reports when someone is running a residency, when an engagement lead is running a residency, he or she is always sharing internally and also with the customer the learnings by sending a weekly report, and telling everything, and sharing also videos, pictures. We could also learn from our experience and from the others as well. It’s awesome because I am always like… Even though I’m not delivering a residency in North America, I can learn from the experience of an engagement lead there and see what is working and what is not working, and apply that here in Germany as well.

Alexis:

So you achieved a level of transparency that is really important because, that means that all the people that are working on the same thing can share what they are doing. And I assume that they share what is going well, and also what is not necessarily working well for them, right?

Mary:

Yes. And also besides the weekly report and the bi weekly call that we have. There are also the showcases where we invited the customer, and since we are doing the virtual residency now people can attend the showcase virtually. The situation with COVID helped us to attend different showcases around the world, and being closer to teams even though we are in a very different region.

Alexis:

Let’s spend some time on that. Can you tell us what is a showcase, and who to go after that on? You really said the pandemic helped us. What is a showcase first?

Mary:

Okay. The showcase is a practice that we use at the end of a sprint or a iteration depending on how the team is working. And doing the showcase the team is going to showcase the product increment that they built during the sprint. And besides showing them the product increment, they usually talk about their learnings as well about the process, about automation and other kinds of things that they did during this sprint. And before the pandemic, people were doing showcases in person. So sometimes we wouldn’t like have a camera filming yet so but we were doing it in the room, in a meeting room. And now because of the virtual residency we are doing it online, so people can attend even though they aren’t there.

Alexis:

And so you get to a rhythm with the customer and the team involved, that they are okay to showcase their increment of work at the end of the sprint, and they are also ready to showcase their learnings and share that openly with the wider community than only their team?

Mary:

Yes.

Alexis:

This is really good. In a sense that going to virtual residency, that’s why you said the pandemic elders because I guess everybody was more comfortable to have residencies in person?

Mary:

Yes, of course. It helped us to… Like in this case of being able to attend several showcases, but it was a big challenge for us, it was as well another different aspects.

Alexis:

At the beginning I guess if I understood well, the residency were all in person. When did you switch to virtual tool?

Mary:

When the pandemic started and we couldn’t be together anymore, we had to pivot and find a way of working the same immersive way, the same way we were doing in residency but in a virtual environment. And it was a big challenge, we put a working group together from different regions to create this new product, that is the virtual residency. And we had to adapt to create templates that we could use on Miro, and see how we could facilitate those practices using this remote environment. And how we could make sure the team were working together, we were doing like team building activities even though we weren’t together anymore, we weren’t in the same room. We had several conversations about it, and we are now running several virtual residences. And we did finish some of them as well, and we are improving this new approach. We had success in all of them so far.

Alexis:

Thank you very much for telling us more about the open innovation labs and engagement lead role. I think it’s really impressive the way you pivot to via two. And the way you are able to not only use yourself those improvement feedback loops, but to teach that to customers that are not necessarily seeing that as a really incredible positive things at the beginning. But let’s go back to book writing. You told us a little bit more about why you did it. What did you learn in the process of writing that book?

Mary:

Okay. That’s a question that I’m going to answer, and then I want to hear your answer as well because I know you’re an author. And I’m always interested learning and knowing more about what people are learning from this process, right? My favorite thing about sharing something is that I get to learn, and it wasn’t different with the book writing. I learned a lot in the process. And one of the biggest lessons for me was to apply what I was doing with product teams in my own life. The principles and values they don’t work only with software development. Once you truly understand what they mean you can finally live by them, and actually we did apply them while writing the book as well.

Mary:

I wrote a blog post about how people can apply Agile practices and principles while writing a book, and I tell with a lot of examples how I applied this in this process. But the most important thing for me was this MVP concept, because I was also out, I was always talking about this with product teams. When I was writing the book it was hard for me to apply it, because I wanted it to be perfect. I remember that Paolo, the co-author, Paolo and I we were struggling a lot to come up with a good title and with a good cover. And at some point we noticed that we were putting a lot of energy on it, but we weren’t spending time on what was going to bring more value to writing the book.

Mary:

He decided that we should time-box it, and we did. We like “Oh, in 20 minutes we’re going to think about the title and create a cove and that’s it. This is going to be the first title in the first cover, and we can change it later but we are not going to spend more time on it. And that’s what we did. And I remember the Reid Hoffman sentence he says that, “If we you are not embarrassed by the first version of your product, you will launch it too late.” And I was very embarrassed with the first version of the book because the cover was so ugly, the title was terrible, it was so big that every time I had to talk about the book, I was mentioned a different title because I was confused about the wording. And I was saying a different thing all the time.

Mary:

This was the first version and we publish it only by the way. We put it there so people could read and give us feedback. And I was so embarrassed of the first version, but I learned how to apply this to my whole life, into the writing process. And this helped me to relate and to have more empathy when I was having this conversation with product owners or with product teams. And after a while after receiving all the feedback, we were able to come up with a better title, a better cover. And it was fantastic because if we try to do that upfront at the beginning, we would never be able to have this final version of the book that I really like.

Alexis:

I really like it. I remember that you said you will answer but I shouldn’t swear too. Oh, it’s odd, I prefer to ask questions. For the first book I think what I really liked was, people were asking me questions and my intent was to find a way to answer those questions in telling a story, in telling what I’ve learned in the process. I think I fell into the perfection trap really, really badly. And I tried for several years to write it. And I changed the angle, I changed everything. The title, the story, I restart from the beginning. And at some point I have said okay, that’s enough. Let’s have a first version out, Leanpub, and let’s see what people would think about it. I learned a lot in the process because yes, as you said, sharing is learning.

Alexis:

As soon as you try to explain what you’ve learned, you learn more. You understand better. You connect the dots. There was a lot of things that were, I knew intuitively how to do things. Or I was able to see something, everything. Oh, yeah, let’s do that. Or I was ready to ask good questions, but I didn’t really know why. And though, writing was helping me to already understand and consolidate what I knew. It helped me a lot to be better at what I’m doing. It’s a good thing. You don’t necessarily need to write a book, but at least if you write your journal or if you write two blog posts that will help you to learn. That’s the first thing.

Alexis:

And the second thing is, definitely I launched too late. That was a little bit overwhelming for people to give me… To provide me feedback. Because then you have a finished product, where to start. Where to start giving you feedback. You can have really constructive and interesting feedback from all the authors, because they’ve went through that so they know how to give you feedback and they know how to help. You can have also good interesting feedback from book clubs. That’s probably the two sources that gave me a really interesting feedback. And then I worked on the version two with two friends, John Poelstra and Michael Doyle. We worked on it, we already definitely improved it. We worked in an iterative fashion so, and we had our weekly call that was really amazing.

Alexis:

We add version two out roughly in the time we said we will have to, that was good. Yep, I launched too late and that was a mistake. I was not able to connect enough with people earlier so they could give me feedback. For the second book I tried to do something different, so the first book was changing your team from the inside. For the second I worked with Michael Doyle, I’m a software engineer and I’m in charge. We wanted really to tell a story and to have a real business fable like the goal, or like the Phoenix project or like the title, no radical focus or there’s a lot of books that our business favorites are. The five dysfunctions of a team or things like that. To help people understand through the story to me really identify themselves to some of the characters in the story, so they can know what to do.

Alexis:

By points of view is always whatever your role, you can always have an impact to change things. In that story of the second book we worked on that. I think working with the quarter was really helping, because it pushes you to work in an iterative way, and to have regular check points, and not to spend too much time on things you don’t know. And to try to check that. And so we checked our assumptions with reviewers, we ask people to give us feedback on really pretty minor if they’re shown off. Even just the introduction or the first chapter. And it worked much better, because then we were working not only on our own assumptions, but on the feedback of the default reviewers. And it was interesting because, we were force to accept that there were a thing that we will not make a choice.

Alexis:

There was reviewers that were saying, “Oh, yeah, I think you should start with the story. I don’t care about that small paragraph that you put at the beginning, that is telling me why I should care about reading that chapter.” And there was also people saying, “Oh, yeah, that’s really great that you have that small paragraph that is telling why we should care about the chapter. I think it set context really clearly for the story.” And so you have opposite feedback from the reviewers, and you’re looking at it say, “Okay, what can we do now?” We cannot take into account all of them, but at least we understand why some people like that, and why some people don’t like that. I think the learning thought was, you need really to release often and early, and you need to have the group of people that are diverse enough that they will give you really that different feedback. So sorry, that was a long guns fire. I was not really not ready to answer a question now. What do you think?

Mary:

That’s awesome. I love their experience, and it is very similar to some of the things that I learned as well while I was writing this book.

Alexis:

I checked a while ago and the book is in Portuguese, right?

Mary:

mm-hmm (affirmative).

Alexis:

Have you planned to have the book in all the languages?

Mary:

Yes. Paulo Carolee and I, we are translating the book to English now. Time is an issue, and the process is lower than we wanted because I moved, relocated from Brazil to Germany, and I spent a lot of time dealing with this relocation. So the process is slower than we wanted, but we are working on it and we want to publish the English version early next year.

Alexis:

Excellent. Now delivered in Portuguese is not good enough for me to read the book entirely in Portuguese, I can read blurbs of it but not the whole book I think.

Mary:

We are also planning to publish a version in Spanish, but I don’t know when this is going to happen because we are prioritizing the English version now.

Alexis:

Okay, that’s really good. What else do you want to share with the audience today?

Mary:

I think I already mentioned this during the whole conversation, but as you can see, for me it’s really important to continue… The continuous improvement it is very important to me, and I’m very glad that I get to do this at work every day. Like as part of the open innovation labs team as an engagement lead, working for Red Hat I get to do this every day and I love this. I love that I am able to understand why I’m doing things that I know the outcomes of my work, and that I have this clarity about it. I wanted to share this experience with people because I’ve been the other side, I know how frustrating it can be when you don’t know why you’re doing things. Or when you don’t understand it, when you don’t know to more building it for.

Mary:

I understand that feeling and I want to share with people that they can maybe use the open practice library, that’s something that we use a lot as the open innovation labs. And we put there a lot of different practices that people can use to understand their business outcomes that they want to achieve. Or also practices to set the foundation to work as a high performing team. There are different practices there. I use a lot of them. And there are a few practices that I have to put there that I created. But if you’re really focusing on continuous improvement, and trying different things and learning from your mistakes, then you’re always getting better. And this is like the big message I want to send with the book, and with pretty much everything I do.

Alexis:

I love it, and I assume that open practice library mean that we can contribute to it?

Mary:

Yes.

Alexis:

If you add practices you can contribute there?

Mary:

Yes, it is an open… Sorry, open source with repository, so you can also submit your practices there.

Alexis:

Really cool. I know the opportunity to learn from sharing. Thank you very much Mary for being on the podcast today.

Mary:

Yeah. I want to thank you for inviting me to record this podcast, and to give me this space to talk a little bit about myself, to talk about the book, and to share some of the things that I learned in this journey so far. So, I hope you all enjoyed and thank you again.

Alexis:

Thank you for listening to this episode of Le Podcast. Go to alexis.monville.com for the references mentioned in the episode, and to find more tips to increase your impact and satisfaction at work. Drop a comment or an email with your feedback, or just to say hello. And until next time to find better ways of changing your team.

The music is Funkorama by Kevin MacLeod (Creative Commons CC BY 4.0)

The header picture is from Riccardo Annandale.